Ruminations on Scale

[masmojo]

Dave, I totally got what you were saying . . really!

But all of that is so much easier with 1/43! So many 1/32 tracks (as you eluded to) in an effort to get as much as possible into a small space become what I call "a bowl of spaghetti" Overs, unders, swirling all around; space is always your nemesis! with 1/43 it reduces drastically your need to see how much you can cram into your space, which helps a lot with the flow. They say that Spa is great, because "you feel like you are actually going someplace" I feel that way about 1/43, done properly you feel like your car is actually going somewhere! LOL

In fact I believe part of the reason that most guys don't click with 1/43 is because while they may have bought a Kyosho or and SCX or some other 1/43 car they are running them for the most part on 1/32 tracks, which quite frankly is incredibly boring! A good 1/43 scale car on a good 1/43 scale track is just as satisfying as any 1/32 car I have ever run, it's just a hard target to hit, because the cars we get for the most part are not good and most people won't just run out and route a 1/43 scale track! Understandable really, but it is partly what prompted me to start this thread in the first place!

Shaking things up a bit!

[OL Mike]

:banana-dance: Carrera or artin SCX with good planing you can lay i143 track out nice the best of all is it dont end up on the the curb why you can start over and ove

[masmojo]

Old Johnny, It's a bit of oversimplification, but yeah in a nutshell you can fit 3 lanes in the same foot print (or maybe width is a better term) as say Carrera track, but I also combine that with changes in lane spacing at different points, from Squeeze's in the esses to increased sliding room and runoffs in turns. This really helps with the flow.

Even with the added lane (assuming you want to do that) you can still easily fit more in a smaller space without sacrificing flow, mainly because what would be a VERY tight turn in 1/32 is not really tight at all in 1/43, this frees up a lot of space and simplifies track design greatly!

[Ember]

[OL Mike]

[ddyke]

On the other side are the insults to people who want things to be somewhat scale. I am not a "rivet counter" but have been called that and have had worse things said. Let us just be nice to each other as it is a hobby and each can do it his own way.

[Arkay]

Have a look at 32 nd or 24th scale, whether in forums or in clubs.
Either you find totally non - scale cars like wing cars, eurosports, flexi and similar, or you will find scale cars that are detailed, look like the real thing and are - I repeat - SCALE.
You will almost never find things in these forums and clubs that are so toyish and so far apart from what slotracing is represented by as in the 43rd threads.
So why just in 43rd ? Because the basis were and are non - scale toys, only approximately representing the origimals whose names they have ?
What is the reason that just 43rd scale seems to initiate such lowered expectations ?
As long as I have been competing in 24th and 32nd SCALE I hve never ever seen someone using a toyish vehicle out of scale and detail. 
Possibly on a birthday or fun party.
 The people there - at least those I got to know - were anxious to build model cars that looked really good, were well detailed and scale.
Whats the difference between adults doing the bigger scales and those doing 43rd ?
As soon and as often as I mentioned "scale dimensions" and "details" in any of the 43rd forums I was attacked as rivet counter,  pedant and whatsoever. I remember an objection I had to a rule allowing 50 mm width. How many 1:1 cars have a width of 2150 mm ? .....
When I did the same in the bigger scales, I got constructive and objective reactions. 
The 43rd SCALE is so extremely widespread by the huge amount of really top quality STATIC kits that I had hoped this would have had any influence on the attitude in this scale. I failed and sadly only partially understand why. The only reason I find  might be that the standards I set myself are too high. Although I'm sure they are by no means too high.
Why wait for the industry doing the work we can do ourselves ( and probabky better ! ) ?
There are motors, gears, axles, tyres, chassis from metal or printed and quite a pile of resin bodies made  by a few enthusiasts in the cottage industry. 
If the body you want doesn't exist yet in the suppliers' listyou may find it for replicating it yourself.
Most of the slotracers are scratchbuilders. So why do we habit as if we depend on a handful of producers which stagnate, haven' t any grip on slotracing reality or seem to have died already ?

For me it's just THAT kind of freedom that makes 43rd scale so attractive - the independence from any producers' concepts. And when I look at the piles of 43rd static SCALE kits im my shelves I can't say but I myself don' t need the slotracing industry at all.

And I stick to it ( my opinion, not more...) - 43rd scale is the ultimate compromise between all requirements one might put on slotracing.

Roland

[ElSecundo]

I tend to believe that 1:43 will eventually be the premiere scale for detailed slot car racing. This stems from the fact that, worldwide, 1:43 is the most popular scale for detailed diecast cars, and detailed resin kits. Slot cars are a natural extension, but they haven't gotten there yet.

In the meantime, there are some de facto standards -- nothing official, but this is how the hobby has developed. 1:32 is the de facto standard for high detail, and 1:43 has become the de facto standard for entry-level racing -- that is, low cost toyish cars. Every market needs an entry-level segment. If there is no alternative to the current entry-level slot cars, then things will stay the way they are. And, by the same token, if there is another high-detailed scale available, it's hard to push into high-detail -- the competition is strong, and established.

There was a time not that long ago when 1:32 wasn't high-detail, and it could go that way again if the costs keep pushing up. I think we've seen hints of that (very small hints), but it would take some time for that to change.

But to really answer your question, you're going to have to look at markets realistically. I think the answers are staring us in the face.

[Dodgefarmer]

Curiosity getting the better of me, I thought that I would take a good look and compare scales.



Top to bottom being: Revell, Eldon, and Carrera Go. As you can see the Eldon is clearly in the 1/38 scale area. However it is still to large to effectively race side by side on a Go track. That would leave Scalextric as the track for a 1/38 system and still try to maintain a smaller footprint. As Scalextric is 1/3 again larger than Go "small" now becomes a relative term. I think that the future of our scale is to stick with it, keep doing what we are doing, and keep pressuring manufacturers to produce an Evolution style car in 1/43.

Once again
Just my :twocents-mytwocents:
Randy

[masmojo]

You know I use the term "Scale" Loosely! :|

Not because I don't think it's important, but it may be more important to me then other people and we here in 1/43 are such a small group that we are forced to have a little broader scope. Do we want to get into issues where somebody's car is technically over scale? Oh? you know as long as it's not obscene it should be OK, I can see that the person(s) in question went to great lengths to do it and I admire the creativity and the willingness to go that extra mile even though it's not something I would do.

When I say Scale, I simply mean as it relates to Size; for many it equates to some sort of heightened level of detail, which is OK with me if you want to go there, but I am not going to look down my nose at anybody who doesn't! We should all do what makes us happy and that is what this hobby is about! :dance: I like for my cars to look pretty realistic, which is why I don't do Vac forms for the most part, but as Roland points out many of the subjects we have to work with, that make quick easy conversions are themselves toys to start with and sometimes it's not worth it to me to add mirrors to a car, when I am most likely just going to break them off!! :lol: I don't build shelf queens, the reality of 1/43 is that, if you build shelf queens you don't have any cars to run at the end of the day! A person who pours months into building a 1/32 or 1/24 car with little mini light switches and fuel cells and all that; well, at the end of the day they can do a few parade laps and then put that model on the shelf and take down a Carrera that they can run the wheels off! :music-rockout:

The point of all this is as someone points out and I have said previously is that 1/43 in order to "make it" has to reach a "critical mass", but every time it looks like we are going to get there, somehow it goes wrong. Kyosho put out some very fine cars; no they weren't perfect and maybe a little pricey, but I would and did buy as many as I could. BUT, many of those same people who bemoaned the fact that we don't have any good RTR cars, bought one car and then picked apart every little flaw! If the 1/32 guys had complained so voraciously about FLY's when they first came out, slot cars NEVER would have had the revival they did.

So, do I heap atta-boys on builders and buy cars from manufacturers that are REALLY trying and contributing even if it's not to my standard or expectation? YES!! You attract more fly's with honey then Vinegar! :clap: I reserve my vitriol for those manufacturers (and they know who they are) who don't try and don't care to. It's like raising kids; encourage good behavior and discourage the bad.

But, I am slightly off topic; merely wondering out loud, if we are not going to get support in what is a more or less recognized segment of the hobby (namely 1/43), might it make sense to retreat from that high ground and regroup around something that might make more sense in the long run and be something other folks WILL buy into? Especially, considering the continued advancement of technology and the very real possibility that we can build all our cars from scratch in the very near future! :angry-soapbox:

[Arkay]

Nothing but to agree with you, ElSecundo.
But don't forget - one side of a market are the producers, the other side are the customers.

I don't know if anyone from those firms which make or made 43 scale slotcars has ever followed discussions in forums like ours.
Either they are happy with what they are doing - just like it seems with Artin - because they obviously have a big enough audience for what they do
Or they take an adverse path like Kyosho tried, obviously again without getting in touch with the "experts" ( = us ) and thus neither reaching the average xmas buyer nor the majority of the interested 43rd scale slotracers
Or they had reasons for quitting the business that no one knows nor understands because the product itself was really good enough to be continued producing.

Who survives ? The two who were more or less the first on this 43rd scale market - Carrera and Artin.
Why do they survive ? Because the don't go astray from their traditional and time - tested path.
The ones to suffer from that are a few only - even here in our forum. Not enough to move anything.
Will this change ? I'm afraid not. And if not - we are modelers and scratchbuilders, so what...No problem. It has always been us who had to bring things forward. I like it this way.

Roland

[masmojo]

[Arkay]

[masmojo]

You know we can talk about "who suffers" or who this effects, but the thing is . .

. . . . is it true? Maybe everybody suffers?

The manufacturers don't offer quality 1/43 (or whatever scale Products) because they don't want to cannibalize their 1/32 scale offerings, BUT maybe (good chance) they are missing the boat? Maybe, there is a lot more upside to the 1/43 market then has yet to be leveraged? If Scalextric for instance could do a SPORT level product in 1/43; how many could they sell? Could it be that there are far more people who would be interested in a quality 1/43 offering then they even know? Could it possibly be that the economics of it could yield a fatter bottom line; even if (maybe) it's not quite as popular? As frequently pointed out these are Businesses after all! So, by not exploring this maybe they are only hurting themselves

Think about this; the market has been flush with 1/32 sets for so long that ultimately you have to try an sell more new sets to people who already have sets! Trying to sell into a saturated market is always a struggle only partially offset by 1/32 being the more or less the established standard! 1/43 on the other hand is relatively untapped territory.

Another thing to ponder! The majority of the people who can spend large sums of money on 1/32 scale slot cars are baby boomers and we are increasingly getting older and will soon start dying off! Gen X'ers and Millennials are not projected to be as prosperous or live in as nice/large of accommodations as their parents, they typically don't even like cars that much and prefer to ride busses and bikes and stuff. ANYTHING you sell to them is going to have to be a bit more reserved/ conservative! Less ostentatious! more austere!

So, do they wait around for their target audience to kick the bucket, before they get serious about making changes? I would say now would be the time to start setting up for these eventualities.

What about other sloters? people like what they like, but if they could get cars that looked close to and ran the same as 1/32 cars in 1/2 the space, ultimately that would be a powerful attraction, which is precisely why the big guys have not done it!!

Now, I will bet; they are all ready to! If the wind started blowing that way tomorrow, they would all have announcements next week!!! Believe it! :auto-driving:

1/32 is too entrenched to be supplanted, but I do feel like the dominate scale in the future will be something a bit smaller, whether that be 1/43, 1/40, 1/38 or whatever? I think 20 years from now 1/32 will be like LP records are today!

[LloydL]

This is not following the thread of 'what can the manufacturers do for us?' Rather, it is my thoughts on my personal interest in the scale, and how I would like to see us developing what we already have in the direction of proxy racing.

I can not speak for what happens in the rest of the world, but here in the UK, club level 1/32 racing is thriving. There are 4 clubs based within 20 miles of where I live. 3 of them race hard bodied, plastic chassied, analogue cars on wood, and one is digital on plastic track.

There are also many clubs that race to the BSCRA standards of metal chassis with vacformed bodies, but not local to me.

HO is also well catered for around the country, though not as much as 1/32.

There is 1 club, NERCS, run by Kev Owens, up in the North East of England, that is now running a series of Kyosho Dslot racing. Apart from that, there is no other 1/43 racing in the UK, and very few people at all dabbling in the scale.

This kind of suits me, as I see myself as a modeler rather than a racer. I mainly build scale models that move, to use on my own tracks, to suit nobody but me!

So I dont need club racing, or do I?

So how do I get to see my cars 'competing' with other , similar, cars?

I do enjoy building and sending cars to proxy races, wherever they may be in the world. But, up to now, in comparison to proxies in 1/32, we have not yet reached a serious level of racing as in the other scales. BUT THAT IS CHANGING! With some of the fine chassis builds entered in some proxies this coming winter, and with some of the fairly soon to be available vacform bodies, the standards are reaching those seen in the other scales.

So, what am I getting at?

I do not really see 1/43 club racing taking off here in the near future, so that leaves home racing and proxies.

Home racing: We do, and should, race whatever we want to, and in whatever way that suits us on our own tracks. That may be anything from straight out of the box Artins, complete with magnets, to handbuilt scale models made from whatever we want to use. We do this for fun, so there is no 'right or wrong,' or 'good or bad', it is personal choice!

Proxies: This is the area that could help advance the development of 1/43 scale slotcars, and, perhaps, to encourage those who have not yet tried to build or modify their own cars to give it a go. Over a period of time, I would like to see various events that suit all interests in the scale, maybe comprising of one or more of the following suggested class outlines:

1) Out of the box stock chassis with magnets, with stock or aftermarket body.

2) As above, but without magnets, and allowing any wheels, tires, axles, gears and guide.

3) As 2, but allowing bought chassis, eg. printed or plastic.

4) Anything goes, but maybe limited to a specified motor.

Also, I think it is time to have events for specified body types, be it LMP/GT, Nascar, Touring cars or whatever.


These are just some of my personal ideas and are meant to provoke further discussion on the direction of 1/43 proxy racing, and are not meant to be seen as actual rules.

Regards, Lloyd