Why & When Slot Cars Fail

[slothead]

A great conversation about cracked plastic chassis and wheels coming loose got started on the "Summer Camaro Time" topic thread, so I decided to start this topic to keep the conversation going. When dealing with RTR cars being used in a variety of ways it seems obvious 'Individual Results Will Vary', but it's also worth sharing experiences to see if we can figure out what's going on.

A key point is, are the home racing RTR cars many of us love designed to be raced (hard) or admired and played with? What about tuning? For those that love to make a great looking car become a top performer too, when might we be expecting too much from a 'toy' car?

I think it might be comparable to my 2012 Mustang that on an open road I can get to go much faster than I should. But I also realize when I get to a corner it's going to handle like a street car and not a race car, well, because it's a street car. I can thrash it about if I choose but it's going to suffer for it in the long run because, well after all it's a street car and not a race car. So while I push things now and then, I know there's a line that if I cross it means I'm putting myself and the car at risk.

What's reasonable to expect out of a home track RTR slot car, AKA 'toy car'? Even though I don't consider my slot cars to be 'toys' given what I've spent on them and how I take care of them, I accept they were built for kids just like when I got hooked on the hobby at 8 years old when I got a set for Christmas. Am I wrong for seeing that segment of the market as what Scalextric & Carrera, etc, are primarily focused on?

Slothead (Joe)

[tjettom]

I see you are right on my point Joe. I have had so many problems with them because yes they are really nice looking toy cars and are not intended to withstand the rigors of competitive racing. After a few years into 1/32 scale I have learned the difference between the two and I really thought this being a Home Racing forum that others may have had similar experiences. So my resolve has been to use the beautiful bodies and put them on my own custom chassis...I think I probably have about a dozen or so brand new Scaley Camaro chassis I'll be selling off...any offers?
regards,
TB

[tjettom]

Come to think of it after this discussion,I was thinking about all the Carrera and Monogram cars I have....and I run the dog _ _ _ _ out of them too- just the same as the scaley cars and I can't think of one time I had ANY problems worth mentioning with either of those two brands. I guess you might call them "toy cars" too I don't know...but I will say, although the Scaley Camaros are my favorite looking "race"cars and we have a class racing them weekly, I have had constant failures with those only...so go figure...As they said they were ALL just toy cars anyway. So my 6 cents worth.
Regards,
T.B.

[slothead]

While I consider myself a slot car racer, and slot cars have been my number one non-work activity, I probably have to excuse myself from most of what's being talked about because as a solo racer now my definition of racing 'hard' is probably nothing like what others are doing in club racing. When I'm recording 100 laps times each for 20 cars for a simulated race I can often do all 2000 laps with only a few deslots. With time penalties for deslots that vary based on severity, and delays built in to account for being in traffic, a car is not likely to have a decent finish if it loses a bunch of positions due to accidents. This oddity for slot car racing works for me because it's realistic with regards to 1:1 racing. Only rarely will a car spin and recover to win, and certainly not if it's in the later stages of a race (I'm ignoring NASCAR's lets crash till we have a winner green-white-checkered scheme).

I'm very interested in what you say about parts failing during racing and not from crashes. We've all heard about actual race car drivers who get a reputation of 'driving the wheels off a car', but drivers who can't save their equipment till it's go time don't do well and don't have happy car owners. In my years of attending races I've seen many 'crash or win' local track heroes go by the wayside because it costs more to crash than you earn by winning.

If Scalextric cars (Camaros?) are failing at speed I'm curious why? I thought all their TA cars used the same axle and wheel setup, but just looked and noticed color differences for the 8-spoke Minilite wheels and that the Cougar, Challenger, and Javelin have 5 spoke wheels. So perhaps there are differences that matter. Have you noticed any differences for wheel failures based on color?

[tjettom]

Say there Joe...a slot race on a four lane track is such a different issue than you describe. We race to win by being ahead of ALL other entrants. Try it some time. It's alot like a real race.Then and only then you will discover equipment failures for real and not from said crashing. I have ran many 12 minute races with NO offs at all. This does not contribute to equipment failure.It equates to what has been stated...toy cars or race cars...

[mattb]

When Fly cars were first made, I ran a little 1/32 at home. When I had to glue wheels back on axles, I realized they are just toys. I think now there are some 1/32 cars that use set screws and lock nuts on the wheels., right? This is a more serious racing car to me. I don't know much about current stuff so that is about as much as I can add.

The difference between racing hard and just running cars is a pretty good learning curve. When our small group started running hard body 1/24 cars on the commercial track, it took about 2 months of racing once a week to learn what was required to build a car that didn't mechanically break down every week, had body mounts fail, bodies break, and other failures. It was a lot different than playing with cars at home. Every week I would go home and repair 3-4 cars. We finally figured out what was needed and now can pack the cars away and not get them out till the next week! I am a slow learner.

[waaytoomuchintothis]

Model race cars vs. Miniature racecars... None of these things are toy cars at all, regardless of what Carrera chooses to call them. Think about model trains. It isn't hard to machine live steam engines that pull tons in quarter scale. But a quarter scale electric train looks just like it and you don't get steam and ash in the house. They are both models, not toys.

The undercurrent of all this is the difference between home racing models and all-out commercial track racing. The most dramatic way to see it is to remember when commercial tracks became the domain of insanely fast little aerodynamic blobs of plastic that never looked at all like a car. I just didn't think that was fun. I run model cars, at home and at other people's homes. Last time I was at a commercial track, some over competitive jerk slammed my thumb as I lifted a deslotted car for someone during a track call. Everyone else had stopped completely. It was one of those crazy fast things that don't look like cars, and the body caved in leaving the brass pan to cut into me like a blade. It took stitches for the cut and there was blood all over the place. THAT is why when one of these over competitive guys shows up... I leave. To be fair, he should pay for the use of the whole track and we get our money back, but no one ever came up with that.

[slothead]

I fully admit that what I do as a solo racer simulating races is completely different from club or commercial track racing with multiple cars on the track together. I used to do that and still would if it was available up here in central Maine. As the person responsible for 100 or so RTR cars I'd be crazy to race them hard enough to break them, so I reduce the voltage and race them just hard enough to get the best out of each car without being an idiot. My cars are like pampered house pets compared to how many of you use them where they have to forage for their food to survive.

When I raced with a bunch of guys back in NY we used metal chassis with 1/8th inch axles and set screw crown gears and wheels. There was a lot of tinkering to get the setup just right. A little tweak here and there made a lot of difference. The top contenders would rebuild their car each week, inspecting key solder joints and replacing anything that seemed worn. Well maintained cars tended not to have any failures unless caught up in a massive crash sending them into a barrier or off the track. Those were custom built miniature race cars. Most didn't look nearly as good as todays RTR cars, but under the lexan bodies they were rugged.

What differentiates a miniature race car or model from a toy car is a matter of personal opinion. This conversation has me drawing that line between cars with metal wheels with set screws (scale race cars) and those with plastic press on gears and wheels (toy cars). That's not to say the latter can't compete with the former, and generally you can't tell them apart without picking them up. They are interchangeable on my track racing with aftermarket silicone or urethane tires at reduced voltage. Now that I think about it I'm surprised none of the higher end models don't have metal chassis. For the money, over $100 for NSR or CG cars, you'd think they could and would.

[mattb]

Slothead has an opinion similar to mine. I don't have a problem with calling a toy car a scale race car, but I feel like if it is something Mom can buy at the shop down the street, give it to a 10 year old boy to take out of the box and put it on a little dinky scx track and loose every piece of trim, break the wheels and tear it to pieces in an hour or so, I call it a toy car. If Mom buys a nice (whatever brand makes quality stuff) car for her husband and he takes proper care of it, fixes broken stuff as necessary (body trim), I consider that a scale race car.

If husband can go a step farther and build his own car from a model/resin/or rtr car body and use his own chassis design, decal it and finish it and tune it to perfection, that is what I really call a scale race car. These are what most guys here do to perfection.

I call them toy cars because that is what I consider them. I guess looking like a real race car is not enough for me to call it a scale race car. The chassis design and components must be quality and tuned to run properly without magnets to make up for poor design.

Wing cars and vac body 1/24 blobs were mentioned above and in no way can they be called scale anything. They might as well not even use bodies. Everytime you guys have a proxy and post pictures here, I see "scale race cars".


SCALE RACE CARS MY OPINION
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[HomeRacingWorld]

Slothead wrote:

"This conversation has me drawing that line between cars with metal wheels with set screws (scale race cars) and those with plastic press on gears and wheels (toy cars)."

Well it should. Wish more would. Problem is too many compare our simple 1/32 "toy" cars to those they remember "back in the day" that were mostly scratchbuilt (or needed it as they were horrible) or what they relate at a commercial track today. And make statements like "My Carrera is no match for my NSR". "These Slot.it models are far and away better than my NINCO".

Model Railroading. Hmmm ok Rob :dance: You think there is a difference between the locomotives that enthusiasts build from scratch or even the rolling stock that are built board by board with machined wheel sets and advanced automatic couplers compared to say the "same" equipment in a Life-Like set? What about the track? Is the old snap together track the same as the one built with: Subroadbed, cork roadbed, and each tie laid by hand? Would the model railroads folks built from the set they bought on Christmas be on the cover of any Model Railroader? What do you think is the general opinion of these "set" items?

Problem is, some don't. They judge these cars based on how they perform and last compared to the Group Whatever commercial blob and declare them "junk".

I guess Dave or Kurts MINI is just "junk" because it could not clear the first jump at my local off road playground. Yep...clearly MINI's fault for making a sub par product.

Or that the TYCO or NIKKO RC Truck I bought my kid at Walmart won't keep up with the guys at the local track's Associated, Traxxas, or Losi's?

OR when we had our little "Midget Proxy" and we all built really nice, intricate cars and sent them out. All went well for three races UNTIL it arrived a mostly commercial track that raced blobs. We were all treated to the video where our cars were literally destroyed by age groups ranging from 10 to 50. Yeah...it was OUR fault for not building the cars strong enough. They should have ran just like the Womps they are used to racing.

Are the cars we buy lower quality than other competition brands? Gee...I don't know? They SHOULD be bullet proof. I should be able to load them with 3 extra magnets, at 18 volts, and when my 4 year old puts a hole in my drywall, should be intact.

ON PARTS:

Compare our ready to run brands against other off the shelf toys. Broken wing? Wheel? Worn out tire? Stripped gear?

Now take a CLOSE look at say...the Carrera spare parts department at LEB Hobbies or Carrera Slots. Please feel free to find the same for the low cost RC car/truck/drone you bought at Walmart.

Is it just me or have many of us been tuning and enjoying almost ALL brands of cars on our home track for at least a couple decades now?

I think MOST of us true home racers understand the difference and enjoy them. Yes...Fly cars are bad...and we tuned and enjoyed them anyway.

The Scalextric Tran-Am models have been around for how long? Anyone? Bueller? How many home clubs race and enjoy them? Do they have to tune them? Oh my I think so. Do they need better gear? Better TIRES? Ummmm....yep. Read Mattb post about the recent hardbody commercial adventure. Even THOSE "professional/real" race cars need attention eh?

Product failures can be attributed to many things: Design, poor factory assembly, low quality components...AND...wait for it....THE OPERATOR. :whistle:

I'll keep racing and enjoying my Scalextric/Carrera models like I have for many, many years.

[mattb]

Harry, our issues with building for a commercial track and the increased speeds was a lack of knowledge on our part. Having run 1/24 hard bodies on an 18 foot 6 lane Carrera oval, we were not up to speed on what was required when you ran the car to it's max speed. As I posted, it took us awhile to learn what we needed to do, but once we got to that level we were able to build a quality car and not have to fix something every week.

No machine can run indefinitely without maintenance and repair, but basic quality and engineering should rule out failure of basic systems. Chassis design based on what has worked for 40 years should allow a manufacturer to build a basic car that runs pretty well out of the box and doesn't have parts fall off. Even plastic can make a good frame if engineered right, as demonstrated by the 3D upgrade plastic chassis for factory built 1/32 cars. If you truly want to call the item you sell a scale racing car, I would think you would at least put quality tires on it. There wouldn't be a need for a guy to order a car and a set of urethane/silicone replacement tires at the same.

What has this got do with scale racing cars or toys? I guess in my mind to call it a scale racing car, the chassis should be a good "racing" design and as durable as the body is pretty in it's scale appearance.

[HomeRacingWorld]

[ourwayband]

[mattb]

Harry, I'd make silicone tires the industry standard. Why would silicones cost more than other types of rubber that come on the cars? They can have lettering imprinted just like regular rubber and the molds shouldn't cost anymore than what they have made today. I run quite a few sets of silicone tires that are over 50 years old and they are still sticky and still round. They grip on any kind of surface.

I also see that a lot of AJ's silicones are hard and not so good anymore. They must have been a harder rubber and they also tend to chip and flat spot after 50 years. I have never tried sanding them so maybe they could be saved.

I'd save the Little Debbie's for the racing break when we all set around and bs!

[HomeRacingWorld]

No it’s not getting that way Rusty, just my way of rebuttal today :) last few days all I hear is how horrible our cars are. Maybe sell them all and race trains?

Silicone? No thanks. I want urethane for most. So now I have still buy a set of tires. :)
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