Limited Edition Pioneer failure (1 0f 750)

[waaytoomuchintothis]

[HomeRacingWorld]

Wow. Well, I am doing a review anyway...mine seemed ok to me. In fact, I just took the wheel assemblies out of the Razor and they actually looked really good????

I was just taking a break from taking it fully apart to check the chassis.

Thanks for your own take on it sir. More views, more info.

[HomeRacingWorld]

"the "legs" under the seats protrude so far that the already warped chassis is also torqued in two directions on the opposite axis from the mounting screw torque."

Rob. Check the red wire. It's mounted in a way that it rubs those old mounting posts.

Just tryin' to help.

[waaytoomuchintothis]

I'll have a look, but none of the wires had an imprint of pressure on them, usually a dead giveaway that one of them is out of place.

You know, as many of the original Pioneer cars as I bought, (43), I never had a wheel so cockeyed, nor a body rub on all four points, nor all 4 wheels pressed on too far. That was what shocked me. Putting cars on the plinth wrong and causing chassis warp is not nearly as important to me.

[JULES]

Hello Robert,

I just came across your review after I had finished reading the more recent one by Harry W.

Your review, in the main, is a shocking indictment on the condition of your model.

You raise a number of points that I do not understand. Allow me to review them in order:-

1/ “the body doesn't fit the wheels on the chassis”
We have made over 4,500 Camaro models. I have to argue against your findings. If the body did not fit this would have been apparent 2 years ago.

2/ “related to the above directly, the wheels are slammed so hard against the chassis that they won't turn.”
My reply would be the same as in point (1)

3/ “the right rear wheel is out of line as bad as any Ninco (and that says a lot!)"
I agree with this 100%. I reckon the hub is cracked and this should not have gotten past QC.

4/ “the tires don't fit the wheels.”
I really don’t know how you come to this conclusion. The wheel and tire size are exactly as they have been for many years.

5/ “the chassis to body screws were cranked so hard the plastic actually popped when each of them finally broke loose and unscrewed. Of course, this served to make the tire rub and the chassis warpage worse.”
There is no way those body screws should be as tight as you indicate. Just enough, so that the posts meet the chassis and hold it firm.

6/ “the mounting screw on the plinth display case was overtorqued so badly that the chassis is warped.”
The models are attached to the plinth base by a tiny little person who should not have the grip of a gorilla. This is a mystery.

7/”the "legs" under the seats protrude so far that the already warped chassis is also torqued in two directions on the opposite axis from the mounting screw torque.”
I think you may be referring to the disused screw posts where we used to fix into the interior floor. These posts will be removed in the tooling later this year. They are not required. Nevertheless, I am unsure of what they are getting in the way of.

We can skip through points 8 thru 10 as these were positive comments about the decoration on the model. Thank you for those.

The final part of your review makes some general observations including how much the “average” person will have to spend in time and money sorting out their model.
I don’t agree that the average person takes their model apart or wants to try and upgrade. Most buyers do not get a model like the one in your hands.

Having said that, anyone that received a model in the condition you have reported would have had some difficulty running it in an ‘average’ way – out of the box and onto a plastic track. Specifically, if the wheels are binding and the rear wheel is so wonky it will not run properly. I would expect this model to be returned as a dud.

I have a long-standing arrangement with any buyer who is less than pleased for whatever reason. They get a full refund or a replacement model. In reality, complaints are rare.

With regard to your suggestion about supplying the upper body ready to go and then the running gear as either RTR or in pieces for you to assemble is a fair enough suggestion. Anyone reading this topic is very welcome to PM me and this can be arranged

Your final paragraph is nothing short of a personal attack, damnation of the brand/pricing and some kind of desire to keep churning over old ground. But I would expect nothing less from you given that it has been your style in many of the old Pioneer threads. Because of this, I have to question your motives for such a review. What are you trying to accomplish?

In summary, I don’t know why your particular model is so ‘bad’, I just don’t. What I will do first thing Monday is batch test several cartons of models that are ready to ship. We’ll take them apart and check to see if any (or all) of the faults you mention are evident.

I shall report back.

Jules

[oceanview]

Thank you Jules for your detailed reply

[waaytoomuchintothis]

I suspected you would respond, so I waited for you. To each of the points below, I have responded, too, giving you suggestions to help you solve the mysteries you mention.

1/ “the body doesn't fit the wheels on the chassis”
We have made over 4,500 Camaro models. I have to argue against your findings. If the body did not fit this would have been apparent 2 years ago. ---I suspect that the rub against the fender was from the tires' that didn't fit the wheels. As is shown in the photo, the tires, particularly the fronts, were "cupped", because the sidewalls were too tall. I could have turned them down on a tire sander, but a simple swap to other Pioneer tires from one of my Mustangs solved it. The replacement wheel/axle units bought separately, with the spare Pioneer tires I had on hand ended the rub without the need to sand the inside of the fender, thank goodness. Not only are they too pretty to take a chance on, they are very thin, making it more risky than in other situations.

2/ “related to the above directly, the wheels are slammed so hard against the chassis that they won't turn.”
My reply would be the same as in point (1) ---What can I tell you? Until I released the pressure, they were hard against the chassis. This was observed after removing the body to make sure the body rub against the tires wasn't the entire issue.

4/ “the tires don't fit the wheels.”
I really don’t know how you come to this conclusion. The wheel and tire size are exactly as they have been for many years. ---addressed above, tires higher on the edge than the middle of the tread. The rib on the wheels couldn't support the center of the tread, hence, "cupping".

5/ “the chassis to body screws were cranked so hard the plastic actually popped when each of them finally broke loose and unscrewed. Of course, this served to make the tire rub and the chassis warpage worse.”
There is no way those body screws should be as tight as you indicate. Just enough, so that the posts meet the chassis and hold it firm. --- It is a problem that is not uncommon in RTR cars. I was surprised these particular ones didn't strip, being that tight. They were all uniformly tight, incidentally. Could there have been a heat/friction issue in the installation? Driving a screw too fast, or driving a screw into slightly warm plastic can make a powerful glue bond on the threads.

6/ “the mounting screw on the plinth display case was overtorqued so badly that the chassis is warped.”
The models are attached to the plinth base by a tiny little person who should not have the grip of a gorilla. This is a mystery. ---see above. I was also surprised to see that the usual spacer between the chassis and the plinth was not there to keep the tires from being pressed against the plinth in shipping. I don't think I have ever seen that spacer left out before. As I mentioned more than once, it isn't a big issue to need to shape up tires on a RTR car, so the very slight flat spotting wasn't worth mentioning until now.

7/”the "legs" under the seats protrude so far that the already warped chassis is also torqued in two directions on the opposite axis from the mounting screw torque.”
I think you may be referring to the disused screw posts where we used to fix into the interior floor. These posts will be removed in the tooling later this year. They are not required. Nevertheless, I am unsure of what they are getting in the way of. --- At the time, I thought they must have been in the way when the mounting screws for the body were so very tight, but I really couldn't tell because the chassis was out of shape there and longitudinally. Of course a few minutes in hot water solved the warpage, which can only mean the part itself was almost sure to have been fine until assembly and mounting to the plinth took place. The plastic has "memory" and it was flat in no time at all. I sanded the posts off just to be sure. Harry took the rails off, too. I should do that.

While I have you here, why do some of the spur gears bind? It has happened twice with Pioneer replacement axles I have used to change the color of the wheels on cars I painted. Its simple to shim the motor and fix it, but I wonder how it happens, when so many of them (speaking only of Pioneer parts), simply don't have the problem, or anything even close to that problem.

[HomeRacingWorld]

Hey Rob can you do me a favor when you have time?

Could you measure the rib width on your wheels? Should be 3.20 MM (narrow).

[JULES]

3.30mm, Harry. On my digital measure.

Just trying to work out if Robert has a set of rear tires on the front wheels. They look normal.

Jules

[JULES]

Thanks for the response Robert. I’ll try and make my response as concise as possible.

1/ As far as I know (and have checked), the concave ‘cupping’ can be evident across all models on the front axle. They are not the driven wheels and I had always thought that the front tires were OK and within tolerance.

‘Cupping’ was an issue with the rear wheels back in the early days but if you check an older rear wheel against a newer rear wheel you will see that the tool has been tweaked to get rid of any unwanted ‘cupping’ by changing the profile of the retaining rib. This modification was done in 2012.

I know some folks that run on wood, no mag, like to shave a few hairs off of the front tires. Apparently this makes them run smoother.

This is something I am happy to try and fix if it is a biggy.


2/ I wonder if the track was too wide on the front axle? I have seen this before. We have a jig that presses wheels on. There is one setting for the rear axle and one setting for the front (front axle is 1.5mm narrower in track). If the operator does not adjust the measurement on the dial when moving from rear to front pressing I have seen axles fitted that rub those front wheel arches. Ordinarily, this is picked up on QC.

4/ Is addressed at (1) above.

5/ All body screws are put in by hand-turned screwdriver, one at a time. Supposedly until they are just firm. There would be no instance where the plastic would be warm or any friction caused. I shall have a look and see how Little Miss Gorilla is doing this in the morning.

6/ The newer style plinths (since 2012) have a raised area in the middle. This was supposed to do away with the requirement for a spacer between the chassis and the plinth. I have never come across a flat spotted rear tire with this new attaching method. Mystery still exists on this point.

7/ I am pleased you have a method of curing any warping that you found.
In the time since I wrote the original response I have had the chance to check over some models in the office. Honestly Robert, they all looked fine when I pulled them apart. I wonder if the warping you mention is related several of the other points you have raised? Warped chassis is not a complaint I have every had to deal with.

You mentioned binding gears. You will have a general knowledge of the behaviour of certain plastics during molding and cooling. If the molder gets it wrong it will affect the size of the finished product. In 2014 I spotted some irregularities in the sizes of the pinion and the spur and we have now changed the molding method and type of plastic. Check out a recent HRW thread called “need help with gear”. I explained it all in there. Basically, sometimes the gears were too small and chattered or if they were too big or ‘out of round’ they were liable to bind. All should now be resolved with any product from early 2015.

I am very concerned with your findings and I would like to think the combination of errors that have crept up and made you car a lemon are few and far between.

If I hear of any other problems that crop up with this particular production run I shall take it as a sign to tighten up the QC where required.

I hope we can have some further exchanges in the future that are more generally favorable in tone. In the meantime, I trust your efforts on the yellow car have proved worthwhile and you get some good laps out of it.

Jules

[waaytoomuchintothis]

"Just trying to work out if Robert has a set of rear tires on the front wheels. They look normal."

That's interesting. Unfortunately, the tires I removed from the front are now in a bag full of Pioneer tires. Lost forever, I expect. With the clearance to the fender so close and the other problems on my particular car, I would assume the wrong tire would have made the difference. Again, I am just relieved not to have to sand those fenders inside. I looked at them again when I cut the rails off the underside of the interior pan. There are places old men with arthritis just don't need to mess with, especially with power tools.

I don't think anyone would care about cupped front tires except for the body rub. And like I say, just a little twist freed all wheels, once I figured out what was going on. That, in addition to loosening the overcranked body screws made the difference there. I should have looked at the position of the spur gear, but I didn't do it. I don't think its possible for it to have contributed to the problem. Once I backed the wheel off on that side, then did just a tiny twist on the other side, the rear was fine, but of course that wonky wheel had to be replaced, and since I didn't have a match, I used dark gray all around. I haven't looked to see if the hub is cracked, but in my considerable experience with Pioneer cars and parts (I have retrofitted Monogram, Carrera, Scelextric and SCX cars with the axle sets sold as spares), when the hub is cracked the wheel just falls off. This crooked wheel was on well enough for me to pull the tire to get a good photo. Incidentally, is it my imagination (or the fact that my shop is down to 38 degrees in this weather- the heaters can only do so much when the outside temp has been 20 degrees or less for weeks), or do the new Pioneer tires stretch less easily putting them on the wheels? I don't see a lot of difference in traction, and the only other difference I see is that it is easier to accidentally rub the white letter markings off the rubber.

About the gears... I think I will put the original spur on the replacement axle and see what happens rather than shim the motor. The original gear was very smooth, and it isn't a lot of bother to swap them out, and from what you said here today, the spur that was on the replacement axle could be the whole problem there. I'll also set my digital caliper on the wheels, front and rear just to be sure.

[JULES]

I would be pleased to send you a new complete rear axle for that model. Those 'chrome rim' wheels have not reached the market as spares yet. Just PM me your address and I'll arrange that for you.

The tire should be the same shore rating as all the previous ones. The temperature could be a factor but I expect it has more to do with the fact that the rib size has changed and you have been used to the older style. The tires tend to wrap on the wheel quite tight now.

Also, with the gears, if you are having trouble with them just let me know. Easy enough for me to send a fresh set to you.

Stay as warm as you can,

Jules

[waaytoomuchintothis]

The "chrome rim" rear axle set? Yes, that will be very satisfactory, and I will re-install the front, which was straight. I don't think there is any reason to doubt the pinion and I have plenty of spares for those, anyway.

So, we theorize the press for the wheels on axles was set incorrectly, simultaneous with the body mounting screws being overtorqued as well as the plinth mounting screw, and rear tires substituted for front tires? That explains all conditions. It sounds like the car was assembled the afternoon before some big event everyone was in a hurry to attend, doesn't it? Here in the US, there was a statistical correlation between QC problems on Fridays and big football games in the 70s.

[JULES]

I'll get that fresh axle out to you, Robert. PM me your address.

I shall look at any combination of processes that may have led to the faults you have found but I'm pretty sure your example is unusual.

Jules

[waaytoomuchintothis]

Jules, it'll be 2 weeks soon. Did you forget to send the axle/wheel/gear set?